Tanika Charles’ third studio album Papillon de Nuit: The Night Butterfly is set to arrive April 8th, and in advance of its release, I had the opportunity to talk with the Canadian singer-songwriter about picking up a career after the enforced hiatus of the pandemic, her battles with imposter syndrome, and aiming for further success. Ever the charismatic, self-effacing and constantly entertaining interviewee who oozes charm, Charles’ future is sure to be dazzlingly bright.
How does it feel to be sitting here talking about music? At last!
It’s pretty exciting to sit down and talk about music, I can tell you!
How do you feel about this part of the process? I can’t imagine when you first considered this career that part of the thrill was sitting down talking to people about it?
To be completely honest, I’m terrified of doing interviews. I think because I get excited and I speak terribly and nothing comes out properly! So, when I read it back, I think I seem uneducated and I’m embarrassed about how terrible it comes off. So, yeah not thrilled!
I read somewhere that Cat Power isn’t really a fan of interviews and I thought I could channel her grumpiness somehow, but then she had a really great interview and mellowed slightly which spoilt that plan! But, yeah, I’m terrified!
There’s a famous interview that Lou Reed did with The Guardian that was, shall we say, frosty. It was like a car crash—so if we avoid that, we’ll be ok! I wanted to start with a question about how things were during the pandemic. Hopefully we are nearer the end of it all now, but to avoid talking about it would be a bit strange, it has been such a life-changing period of time. I wanted to ask you what music you listened to and leant on during the pandemic (assuming that was part of your coping mechanism)?
The first year I basically stayed in my room and cried and didn’t really do much! I went home and stayed there in shock. I went from having a career that seemed to be making moves and then it just stopped. For the first month, I was really excited to have the break and we were under the impression that it would be a couple of weeks and so three or four months in, I knew it wasn’t where I wanted or needed to be. On top of all the horrendous things that were happening around the world, it was just a really difficult first year.
The second year when I actually could adjust to what was happening around me, I started listening to Yebba. It helped me to express myself a little bit more because she’d gone through a traumatic life experience (the loss of her mother) and she had created something so beautiful. I took a deep dive into her work. I also listened to SiR, but the rest is kind of like a blur.
Tanika Charles’ Papillon de Nuit: The Night Butterfly arrives April 8th | Pre-Order
It was interesting when you talked there about “the first year” and then it hits you again about how long this has been part of our lives.
When I think about creating this album, I have to think really hard about the start, middle and end in quite fixed terms to orientate myself.
It must be difficult to put timescales on it because there are no “markers” for the passing of time except for the work itself. You’ve talked about the shock of the break in your career just as you felt things were going to really take off—how long was it before you were able to think about expressing yourself and what shape did it take? How did it start?
So, I recognized that I had to create a new album and I also had to shake myself out of a dark place. There was no inspiration, no motivation. I was speaking to a friend (he also sings with me and we collaborated on a few tracks) and I said that I needed some music, as nothing was inspiring me at that time. I was even wondering if I wanted to do the sound I was associated with. I was angry. I was sad. The music that I was known for wasn’t really doing anything for me.
My friend (Ta’Fari Anthony) suggested I check out some local musicians in Toronto he knew and so I approached them. I cold called and said that I’d heard about them from a friend and asked if they had any music locked away in a vault somewhere that I could take a run at. Scott McCannell (head of Safe Spaceship Music) replied and sent me a folder of music and we started to write (remotely obviously). There was something in that music that triggered an emotion and so I Zoomed with Ta’Fari to write together and that’s how the process started.
As more and more music was coming in, the feelings flowed more and ideas came too. I mostly write about relationships so doing that in a pandemic was tough. I write about love but I’m afraid to write about anything political because I don’t think I have the strength to battle anyone who doesn’t agree with what I say. I’m afraid of the whole thing.
But when you think about some of the people who have created great political statements in music like Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder, they didn’t necessarily do those at the beginning of their careers—it came with experience and off the back of great success. It could come to you later.
And I’m hoping it does. I fear stepping on people’s toes—I don’t want to rock the boat too much but there are days when I feel like saying “fuck this!” and want to say something! There were plenty of things to write about, I just didn’t feel able to express it in a way that wasn’t so literal (and therefore filled with swear words!).
So, to bring it back to your question, it was working remotely with Robert Bolton (who I worked with on the first two albums) and Ta’Fari Anthony who has been a huge and integral part of my growth. He was a soundboard and when I was breaking down (which was every other day), he was someone I could reach out to and he would set me straight. I could speak to my parents but they’re a bit more old-school with things like that. They just want me to brush it off and get on with it—‘get up off your ass, go outside and get some sun!’ I just wanted to stay under my blanket and cry, so I’m shocked the album got finished at all!
I read in the press release for the album that it was a very different process starting off collaborating remotely and then rebuilding the songs when you could actually be together. It must have been very testing.
Yes, it was! It was annoying and frustrating and time-consuming because there were deadlines that had to be met.
Still, amidst all that?
Sure. Deadlines around the creation of the album because of the grants I received to make it. You now have to make the album by a certain date or the funding disappears.
Right. Wow.
And when the music wasn’t sounding the way I heard it in my head, it was becoming impossible. I wanted to quit singing, the whole thing. It was so difficult in that period to create anything that was satisfactory and the only time I felt it was ready was after being in the studio with the players. I’m sure there are artists who put out demos and things like that, but it wasn’t for me.
When we spoke before, I asked you about the style of music you made and you used the word “traditional” to describe the instrumentation you were accompanied by and felt that it somehow fitted your voice. On this new album, there are some new textures and sounds (particularly on “Frustrated” and “Different Morning”) that are more “modern.” Is this a sign that you were confident enough to branch out?
While I wanted the album to be cohesive, I feel like there are a number of different sounds there. I do want to attract another crowd and I think with “Different Morning” adding an MC (DijahSB) to the track was a great idea. I had to run it past my dad because he is a great influence on my work. Every song I made, I would ask him if it was good enough! If he could listen to it and not cringe, then I knew it was ok!
But I was also a bit worried about putting it on the new album because it wasn’t maybe what people might associate with me from the first two albums. I was worried about what the label would say, as it wasn’t the same as previous work, but I loved the track so much, so I put it on. When the label heard it, they were really, really happy! They thought it was amazing! And I don’t know what I want to do next, maybe I’ll want to branch out into something electronic?
I think it shows most importantly that your voice shines no matter the accompaniment. You also have another collaboration with Khari McLelland (“Honey Baby”)—did that happen organically?
I reached out to a number of people for the album and didn’t get a response and, of course, I took it personally!
Of course!
So, I started to think to myself that I wasn’t good enough of a singer to aim for those collaborations. This mind, honestly! But Khari and I had worked on a play called “Freedom Singers,” so we toured that for a while. We met years ago doing a Motown soul revue type show and remained fast friends. A couple of years ago, I was made artist in residence to create an EP at the National Music Centre in Calgary, Alberta and I asked Khari to join me and he was thrilled to do so and our voices just work so well together. So, yes, I would say it was quite organic. We always reach out to one another when it comes to work.
I don’t want to put you on the spot and name those names that didn’t reply to your request but in terms of the future, who would you love to work with?
I would love to say Yebba, but I think she’s way beyond my range…
But what’s that phrase that gets said a lot? “Speaking it in to existence.”
Ok! Sure, I play her every single day and she responded to a message of mine, so who knows?! I also love Frank Ocean and would love to work with him. I think his writing is beautiful and I connect with it so readily. D’Angelo! I sent an e-mail, I SENT AN E-MAIL!
You took your shot!
I believe the email is still unread.
But you know he moves at glacial pace, so you never know! He might get around to it at some point.
There were a few pretty well-known people I reached out to but, you know, if it happens, it happens. If it doesn’t, then I’m happy to say I tried.
You mentioned your dad a couple of minutes ago. I’m always really interested in where the music comes from. Was the inspiration from home or from other places?
Music was absolutely not the journey I thought I would be going on. I love music and I love to sing, but professionally? No way. I often tell this story about my dad though. He is my biggest cheerleader, but he worked out of town when we were kids. So, when he did come home at the weekends, after dinner (during family time) he would put on Bob James, Spyro Gyro or George Benson and we would listen to these musicians and he would ask us “can you hear the saxophone? What is it doing? What key is it in?” And then I started playing the trombone (it didn’t last very long!), but he was so important to me. Not just spending time with me, but also the knowledge about music he passed on to us.
I remember when we wrote “Frustrated”—it was the most difficult song to get right. The mixing of it was really hard. I’d sent it to my dad three or four times and he kept saying “that’s not it, that’s not it.” He would always spot the mistakes or make great suggestions about things. He’s my everything.
So if we move it along a little from those earliest inspirations, what’s the next step on that road? When did you start to sing and then think that you could actually give it a go and see where it took you?
It happened when I lived in Vancouver and my partner at the time heard me humming and singing around the house and he asked if I’d ever thought about singing. I would harmonize and play around and stuff, but didn’t think it was for me. My best friend, who is also a well-known singer, and I formed a group called Xavia Zen in BC (British Columbia) and it actually made some noise! We opened up for Digital Underground.
Wow!
It was a mess! In the best way. We opened up for a few folks—Slum Village stayed at our house! It was a big deal. I have got some stories! As we thought about doing stuff together, she moved away and I moved back to Edmonton and lived on a farm. As far as I’m concerned, the singing was gone, I was living on this farm and I was going to drive a tractor, look after the livestock, you know.
And I’m sitting in this trailer as we were in the process of building a house watching this show called “The Diary of…”—It was an MTV show where they talk to artists—and I was watching the episode on Bedouin Soundclash and I was obsessed! I couldn’t take my eyes off the TV and I was cooking and everything was burning and I didn’t care. I thought that I had to perform with these guys, even though I had no idea how to go about doing it. I loved them. About two weeks later, my friend called me from Toronto about an audition. I asked who it was for and she said Bedouin Soundclash.
No!
Yes! So, I packed my shit (left that guy!) and got the job.
That is serendipity right there.
Right?! It was then that I decided maybe I should try the singing thing! So, I went on tour with them for two years. I loved the whole thing, you know it’s such a wild ride. I wanted in, to be a part of it. But of course, I forgot you need to hire people and pay people. All of that stuff I had to learn, but I would do it all over again.
That is an amazing story.
Don’t get me wrong though, I want to quit all the time! I feel like I suffer from imposter syndrome and only now I feel like I’m recognizing that this is what I do and its ok. I’m not going to sound like that person I want to sound like—I’m unique in my own way. It’s difficult sometimes to accept that I sing for a living.
This is the third album you’ve done, all with Record Kicks and it seems from the outside looking in that you have a stable, secure career on the up and up. Does it feel like that to you because the last two years have taught us what you probably already knew—that this is a precarious career and life.
I do. But I need to address this in the most positive way because I have a tendency to look at things negatively. I’m always comparing myself to others. I think a lot of artists do that. I feel like I’m ok. I have a great team around me and I’m still working. I just finished an album, I’m heading out on the road—I feel good about it.
It’s just my mental health that struggles a little bit, you know? I recognize that I didn’t want to be affected by mental health issues, but it is such a finnicky industry. It’s always going to be bumpy and I need to recognize that there are always going to be milestones that I have hit that I should be proud of rather than focusing on the negative.
But to get back to your question, yes, I do. I feel good.
When you decided that you were going to be a singer and accept this life, did you dare imagine this far down the line and what it would look and feel like?
When the first album was released, I still had my day job and I was sitting at the end of my bed in despair because everything is so dramatic with me! And I wasn’t sure what I was doing with my life and I prayed to god for a sign because I just wanted to sing and to tour. And then it just happened and it was all go, go, go! The only time I stopped was when the pandemic hit and I didn’t realize how busy I was because it was just the way it was. I put on a lot of weight!
You are not the only one!
My gosh. I didn’t realize what good shape I was in. When I look at photos from two years ago, I was pretty healthy, working out and really busy. All of a sudden with nowhere else to go, I could actually eat. I had no motivation or energy to do anything.
Looking back on those early days of the pandemic, there were a lot of people boasting of the things they’d done with the available time like write their debut novel, and all I could think was “good for you, I’m eating too many biscuits and watching reruns on the TV.” That was the life choice I made.
I could see friends getting fit and doing things and I just didn’t have the motivation or will to do anything other than cope.
I think it has been going on long enough that people are changed by having gone through it and may not reverse those changes so easily. So, if we say your life pre-pandemic felt like a never-ending treadmill, albeit a good one, how easy has it been trying to get back on that treadmill that goes at such a fast pace?
It hasn’t been easy, but I’m just doing it. We just had a small tour and I didn’t have quite the same energy. There is a little bit of anxiety around my voice because during the pandemic I wasn’t singing, I wasn’t practicing. I was worried my voice would give out on me.
It’s not like a switch is it—it’s a muscle. If you don’t take care of it, it may not work as well as it could.
Exactly. I do vocal warm-ups and steaming my chords and taking a bit more care to make sure that when I do go back full throttle that I’m strong and ready to be successful.
We encourage people to pick their five favorite albums during interviews and when we spoke previously, you chose quite a varied set. They were Jodeci, Björk, Jill Scott, Radiohead and Bilal and they wouldn’t perhaps be what I might have expected given the style of your first two albums. Where did that variety come from? Was it from radio stations growing up?
Living in Alberta. 100%. Living there, going to a mostly white school. The prairies!
I always think about Prince when he talked about hearing everything on the radio and that being the reason for his broad spectrum of music he produced and loved.
The radio stations weren’t playing Jill Scott—it was Soundgarden, Stone Temple Pilots, The Tragically Hip. I love all of them! I love country music. When Edmonton started to get Black…sorry, “urban” radio stations, that’s when we started to hear Black music. But it was Biggie and 2Pac. Growing up on the prairies definitely opened up my musical roster, if you know what I mean.
Once the album is done and ready to go, do you dare to have any hopes or expectations for it?
It really depends on the day! Some days I’m happy for the universe to take it and do what it will with it, but other days I pray for more recognition and everything I want! To tour the US—those dreams are definitely there.
How has your music gone down in the US? It takes such a huge commitment to make a dent there—it is such an enormous country with a huge population and massive cities.
I think it depends on who you know, the team you have and how much money you are prepared to put out there. I don’t want to believe that and sometimes it is luck, but I’m hoping that it will do a little better. There are a lot of radio stations playing “Different Morning” and hopefully that will open more doors to opportunity and success there. But also being Canadian and playing out there is so incredibly expensive, so as much as I want to travel out there it will have to pay a lot or I’ll need some assistance from here like grants, etc. I would love to tour the US, but I really enjoy Europe. People showing up and buying merchandise—the support in France, Spain, the UK? Incredible. Crazy. So if Europe is the only place I can tour and be successful and secure, then so be it.
Why do you think it goes down so well in Europe?
I don’t know! I want to commend the label because they help push the product so well. This soul is really well-received—they just want to hear the music. It’s so welcomed. Maybe being from a different country helps too? I really don’t know, but it feels really good.
Having said you are fairly zen about the release of the album, what specifically are the things you want from this album, the things you’ve asked the universe for?
I’m too shy to say it because it’s so grand!
Go for it!
I would like, even if it’s not this album but one in the future, a GRAMMY nomination. I would love to walk that red carpet and a billboard in Times Square. I’d settle for one in Yonge-Dundas Square (in Toronto)! I would also like for the next album that I write to not be afraid and just sing my ass off and stop holding back.
When you say “stop holding back,” it doesn’t feel like you’re doing that. I think you are controlled, but you obviously disagree. In what sense do you think there’s more that your voice can do?
I think I need to get over the hump of singing passionately in a studio to a microphone. The problem I have is singing in a booth and feeling the lyrics. When I watch videos of Beyonce or any great musician, they’re in it and giving it everything. I mean, Jazmine Sullivan, come on! I’ve watched these people sing and felt them through the TV. If I don’t do that, then I haven’t done my job. You can trick people although that’s not my intention, but sometimes when I listen back to some songs I think I could have gone somewhere else (vocally) with it. I feel it’s satisfactory, but I could have done more. I hope that at one point in this musical life that I will be 100% happy with it. I don’t know if that’s realistic.
Isn’t that the curse of the artist, to be a perfectionist? What do you think you need in order to make that realization happen?
Confidence.
Will that come from the reception that the album gets? Or those things you talked about like GRAMMYs, etc.?
It all boils down to confidence and self-assurance. Some days are better than others, but it’s something that I have to work on. We all need to believe in ourselves. Confidence. And practice!
That too, of course. Given that this is a new day, I’m going to ask you the same tough question we end all interviews with: what are your top five albums today?
Yola’s Stand For Myself, Kacey Musgraves’ Golden Hour, Yebba’s Dawn, anything by Khruangbin. I’m trying to think what else has been playing around home recently…
This is why people curse us when we ask it.
OK, there’s this artist in the city called Lydia Persaud, her album Let Me Show You, and also Little Simz’s Sometimes I Might Be Introvert. That record is incredible. It is so good.
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