[Read Mark Chappelle’s ★★★★★ review of Until We Meet Again here.]
As a kid, to slide the record out of a ‘70s R&B LP with a pretty brown lady on the cover was such a specific joy. If her newly-released Until We Meet Again is any indication, Sy Smith felt that feeling too.
The singer-songwriter herself is now the pretty lady on the cover and her sounds have transfixed my soul-schooled ears. Steered by Phonte of The Foreign Exchange, and immaculately produced by Zo! and Tall Black Guy, themselves top-notch musicians, Until We Meet Again traverses an electrifying selection of Philly-meets-Brazil grooves.
Hiding amidst the boom of its dusk-lit boogie is an arresting lyricism. “You know, if I’m gonna be completely honest with you,” she offers candidly on the title track, “I gotta tell you / I’m not okay.” Line by line, it’s her most personal offering yet, and she’s allowing unguarded access.
Sy Smith’s new album Until We Meet Again is in stores now
From her history with Foreign Exchange, to telling her Usher-style Confessions, to fighting for fearless artistic vision, and getting Sheila E., Chris Botti, and Tracey Lee on the project, it was a pleasure to explore behind the scenes of its construction. There’s much to talk about.
This project, Until We Meet Again, is such a rich artistic statement, I'm fascinated with how you created it. Was it just something that moved through you? Is this your album? Is it somebody else's?
No, it's definitely my album. From the very first song written to the very last, I started to see a thread, a story, and then I was like, “Okay, this is going to be the story that I want to tell. I don't want people to have to guess (people who listen for those kinds of things).” Now Phonte had a different idea as to the sequencing [but] I wanted to not be like, “No! I'm not going to do it that way!” [laughs]
The “no” is interesting because I know you usually run everything! You've been writing and producing your own material for years on your own label Psyko...what made you actually want to partner up with anybody?
Partnering with FE Music was a natural evolution, because Zo! and I worked so much together. Zo! and I started working on this Zo!-Sy project and Phonte said, “Zo, you should do a Zo! project, partner up with another producer and do a producer project.”
Okay, now why was Phonte blockin’?
[Both laugh] Well, but the end of that was, “and we should produce a Sy album on FE Music.” I think he was trying to get Zo! some inspiration by working with another producer. So that's how Zo! and Tall Black Guy got together and did Abstractions (2021). And the songs for the Zo!-Sy project ended up coming to me.
Which were those?
“Always Pick Up For You” was something we wrote in 2017. At the time I think Zo might have been working on Fourfront (2019), but it seemed way too sentimental for that album…and then “Slide” was early 2020. “Until We Meet Again” as you hear it is not as we wrote it in 2019 or 2018. But when the pandemic happened and we were all separated, we were like, “Oh my God, yes, this is definitely the title of the album.”
How did you first get connected to Foreign Exchange?
Back in 2003 or 2004, Ali-Shaheed [Muhammed from A Tribe Called Quest] said there was a producer I needed to meet named Nicolay from the Netherlands. So, we went to this event in New York called Beat Society, where producers create beats [live] on stage, and Nicolay was one of the producers.
He didn't live in the USA yet, but after the show, we went backstage and Ali introduced me. Nick said, “Oh my goodness, I'm one of your biggest fans in the Netherlands.” And I was looking up at him at like 6’7” or however tall he is and I'm like, “You're one of my biggest fans in the world.” [laughs] Nick told me he'd love to collaborate. So, he sent me a track. I loved it and I knew that I needed to write something special to it [“Aquarius Rising” from 2005’s The Syberspace Social].
At the time, Foreign Exchange wasn't even a group yet, but Nicolay and Phonte had been communicating with each other as they had met on Okayplayer. They ended up making their first album Connected (2004) then Leave It All Behind (2008) and they were nominated for a GRAMMY. In May 2010, Nick's girlfriend at the time (or wife—I don't know) hit me up and said, “Hey, would you be interested in doing a show with the Foreign Exchange in LA?”
Zo! and I had already met but that was my first time meeting Phonte, Darian Brockington, doing anything with the Foreign Exchange. I just showed up to soundcheck (really just a line check). We didn't have rehearsal or anything. [laughs] But I learned my stuff and I guess Phonte was like, “Yeah, she, she cool. She raw with it.”
Yazarah had just finished her solo album (that's why she wasn't there and they called me). And I worked really well with Darian. Anyway, it all worked out perfectly. They went out on tour with the Authenticity (2010) album and asked me to come with them. And that's how we really started working together. The rest is history.
So, you finally signed with their label. What took so long?
I don't think they ever expressed interest and I was like, “Nah, I'm good,” or anything like that. It was just a matter of timing. We were kind of moving along slowly for my taste. Towards the end of 2022, I remember calling Phonte and just being like, “Hey, what are we doing?” And before I could even finish my sentence, Phonte was like, “Yeah, we're kind of dragging our feet. Let's start.” He was doing a Little Brother documentary and I don't think he realized how full his plate was gonna get when he committed to executive produce my project.
It was supposed to come out in December. We were actually aiming for even earlier than that, but we hadn't finished it. It's still later than I wanted, but divine timing is what it is.
How did you know when it was done?
What we had at the time, mathematically, was enough to fit on vinyl, and I knew I wanted to do vinyl. That was very important to me. I was like, “I don't want it to be more than 40 minutes, period.” And the story was complete to me. That story was done. Start to finish, it was exactly what I wanted to say.
As a listener, I can assume everything is non-fiction, but how much of this actually transpired?
Well, [Phonte] wrote two songs, “Photograph” and “All the Ways.” Even though I didn't write those, I found myself in them. Like “Photograph,” I had to call him and be like, “Are you snooping on my life? Cause how, how did you, how do you know this of me?” You know? It hit me so hard in my chest, the lyrics for that song.
Sometimes I write songs and they're not my experience, but I might know the story from somewhere. You know how Law and Order draws from the headlines? Some songs are like that for me. I think on this album, I've got to say every song was very deeply personal.
It translates. There's an authenticity that pings like a loud high frequency. I'm familiar with your work, but this sounds like a different room you haven't let people into before. What made it safe to let people in now? It’s almost alarmingly naked.
You know, it wasn't like I was planning to let everybody into this new room. As I saw the pieces falling into place, I was like, “Whooooo!” But I think I'm trying to enter a space in my life where as I get older, I don't become fearful. I want to be more fearless. I want to be more courageous, more open, and not afraid of vulnerability. I've seen people do that as they get older. They become more afraid of whatever, and it starts showing in their work, and I didn't want to be like that.
Okay, so, for the songs that are on Until We Meet Again what could you not have written the way you did five years ago?
I don't think I would have been able to write “Summer of ‘93” five years ago. Because I get pretty, pretty specific on that record.
And it is spectacular. Like some authors write villains or heroes in a particular way, the way you treat sex is so specific and pithy. Sometimes it's hilarious or sensual or innocent or dominant. So when you write something like “Slide” or “Summer of ’93,” how do you choose to treat it?
Yeah. You know, “Summer of ‘93” especially, I was just like, I'm gonna just tell this story. I'm just gonna tell it the way it happened and however that comes out is how it comes out. Like it's really just a true story. I didn't really edit too much. Bianca Rodriguez also co-penned that with me.
BeMyFiasco?
Yeah, BeMyFiasco. So we had a four-day writer's camp at Zo's house. Me, Zo, Tall Black Guy, and Bianca. And that's where we wrote “Summer of ’93,” “Masterclass,” and “Remember How to Fly.”
So when we were writing “Summer of ’93,” I told her what was in my head. Think about a reunion when you see someone you haven't seen in many, many years. That's someone that you know, an old flame, your eyes meet, you're in that room, the light is right, y'all are drinking a little bit. What are you guys communicating to each other?
She said, “Is it the moonlight hitting just right? Yeah, I like it, babe.” That was her first line, and then everything kind of fell into place. I was like, “Yeah, okay, here we go.” And then that whole ending verse? I wrote that here at home.
Okay. Okay. Okay. So the crew didn't get to…
Yeah, they didn't have nothing to do with that. I came back home and there was that space at the end and I was like, “I'm gonna put a last verse here” and just kind of spit what happened. I sent it back to Zo! and he was like, “Oh boy.” [laughs]
Look, on behalf of everybody who likes to eat popcorn while listening to music, we thank you.
Oh gosh. Yeah. That was how that happened. But when Zo sent me “Slide,” it reminded me of something and I couldn't put my finger on it until you pointed out War [in Albumism’s single review]. I just knew it sounded like something that Jungle Brothers had sampled. I wanted to write something cool, but I didn't want it to compete rhythmically. So I wrote something with long lines and whole tones, you know, legato kind of thing. I was trying to picture Marvin Gaye writing for Diana Ross during his I Want You period. How would that sound?
Well, that would be both in their Hot Girl eras. Diana with the slicked back hair…
Yes! You see it! [laughs] Both in their Hot Girl era. I caught it. And it was a different way for me to sing too. I recorded this upstairs, sitting down at my desk. You feel me?
Which is funny because that's how Marvin Gaye recorded, sitting at the console.
Interesting! I didn't put that together. Right. Right. Right. Yeah.
You have a lot of video clips for Sometimes a Rose Will Grow in Concrete and even Conflict. If you had a visual for “Slide,” what would you want it to be?
If I were to do a visual for “Slide” in the way that I wanted to, with the budget that I wanted to, I think it would visually, texture-wise, look like ‘70s, New York. It feels very BT Express to me. Like subways.
I wasn't really around in the seventies, but I remember walking the streets of New York in the early ‘80s, you know, leather skirts, and leather boots. Sexy in a way that's not about skin, but more about just everything sort of being sexy in a gritty kind of way. I think that's what the video would look like.
One of my favorites follows “Slide” on the album: “Masterclass.” My God, where did the vibe on that ending vamp come from?
I wrote that ending part. And that inspiration came from me. I have an obsession with Dr. Buzzard's Original Savannah Band, Kid Creole and The Coconuts. I wanted my own little Kid Creole moment. In my head, I'm going, “Well, you look good on paper / but you're so lame,” and I hear The Coconuts going, “Playin’ with fire / you’re gonna get burned,” you know! And there's always little nods, tiny Easter eggs that I throw to things that inspire me. That's where that inspiration came from. [sings] “Teacher, teacher, tell me what we learned today.” So, “teacher teacher” was a nod to KRS-One.
Really?! Oh, okay!!
You know, you hear it. Even at the end of “Why Do You Keep Calling Me”? The “Oh, oh, oh!” That's the nod to freestyle: “You're takin me to the point of no return! Oh, oh, oh!” I feel like those girls and the freestyle movement of the ‘80s don't really get enough love.
Again, this is what I love about the detail of your projects. I would have never guessed [‘80s Latina dance trio] Exposé was an influence on this R&B ballad, but they all weave into a seamless fabric. Was it work putting the album together or an easy birth?
The whole album? Oh, it was work, but it was work that I love to do.
What's your working relationship like with Zo! and Tall Black Guy?
Oh man, it's great. First of all, that was my first time working with Tall Black. He's super, super sweet. But he's also really keen on how music, how sounds affect people. He's a DJ, so he gets what moves people and not just on the dance floor, but just in their heads, you know? I like the way he thinks about sounds and where they go. He's a great musician too. And Zo! and I are like brother and sister. We really are, musically. I think he gets me more than anybody I've ever worked with.
I love that they respect what you bring to the table and made sure not to get in the way, but to add to it. And it feels like you weren't missing, but you were amplified.
I felt like that too. When Phonte said, “You, Zo, Tall Black Guy, and BeMy should get together and have like a little writer's camp.” At first, I was like, “Oh, I don’t need nobody to write with me!!” But then I was like, “Okay, let's try it,” and I loved it! [BeMyFiasco] was a fantastic sparring partner to write with.
How do you usually write?
Sitting at the keys, like I did “Why Do You Keep Calling Me,” or somebody sending me a track, like “Always Pick Up for You.”
“Why Do You Keep Calling Me” was the first song I gravitated to and I didn't realize you produced it on your own until later. I didn't mean to shade Zo! and Tall Black Guy in my review. I loved Abstractions and everything they touched on Until We Meet Again. And still I wanted to tell them, “You know y'all just got ate up on your own project, right? The tiny girl singing in the front? The brown one? Yeah, she got y'all.”
[Laughs] You know, it's funny, Mark, because I had to fight for that song to be on the project.
Wait. How? Why?
Well, I didn't have to fight fight, but you know, I don't think that my executive producer necessarily thought it was the best song on the album. I know he didn't ‘cause he said as much. Phonte is very direct with me.
And that's helpful.
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely helpful. And whereas I wanted, “Why Do You Keep Calling Me” to start the album, he wanted it [later in sequence] like, “We want to start with the fire!” but I saw it differently. I really did. I was like, “I'm going to have to prove to them that this song fits on the album.” At the time, Zo! and I had paid Pirahnahead to do strings on “Always Pick Up” and “Slide.”
He is amazing, by the way.
And a beautiful, beautiful brother too. I said, “Well, if I have strings on those two, let me get strings on ‘Why Do You Keep Calling Me’ and then it'll all make sense to them.” So I got Gina Kronstadt to do the strings for that and then I put Neka Hamilton and Denise Carite (also known as Apollo Jane) on BGVs.
Okay, so how did you choose your backup singers because they are so important to the song. Truly.
I knew that I wanted vocals who didn't sound like me. That was important because of texture. And I love when I listen to old records like old Aretha or Deniece Williams, and you hear the BGVs and it's clearly not them singing. And it just makes for such a dope sound. That's what I wanted.
I wanted it to feel like I was in a room cussing somebody out and my girls were standing behind me like, “Yeah! Why do you keep calling her? Hang up on him! He's shit. He's trash.” You know what I mean? Like, back me up!
They sit so perfectly. And the funny thing is, that would not be what I would usually want. I'm such a fan of your background vocals. Do you plan those out with keys or just stack them as you feel them?
Wow. I definitely just do my backgrounds on the fly.
Even “Flowers”?
Oh, God. Yes.
You were able to remember that run to stack it?
Listen, the run came first! The run is what happened when he sent me the track, that was the first thing I sang. At first, I thought, “That's too much. That's way too much.” And then I was like, “Shit. What did I sing??” So I played the track while I was in the shower and it came to me again exactly the same. So I said, “Then this is what it is. I'm going to keep it.”
By the way, you got a lot of big guests on this project. How?
I told somebody the other day [on] the Soul Curators Podcast that it was “the year of me calling in favors.” And I felt like, “You know what? I'm gonna just start asking people that I feel like—not ‘owe’ me a favor—but most definitely would have been open to it.” The worst thing anybody's gonna say is no.
It helps to have friends in high places.
It totally helps, you know.
Speaking of which, why isn't Phonte rapping on the project?
Ha! I don't know.
You couldn't put him on “Always Pick Up for You”? [both laugh]
I know, right? Even on “Summer of ’93,” I don't think I asked Phonte to. I was like, “I really need an MC to do an MC thing, not a rap thing,” which is way more specific than saying “I need 16 bars.” Then Tracey called me to do something for his project. And I was like, oh, he would be perfect for this. We went to college together at Howard. He was like two years ahead of me or something. Plus, he was around then and actually knows some of the players involved in the story. (I didn't tell him that.)
On this album, what were the hardest and easiest songs to write?
I don't know that there was a “hardest song to write” so much as there was a hardest song to execute. “Always Pick Up for You” and “Until We Meet Again” were pretty hard to execute. There weren't as many takes as there were punches. You know, because there were so many times when my voice just broke.
My God. Yeah.
My voice breaks thinking about it.
The way you make space for grief on this album is unusual. Grief is not a thing that people dance to and yet, you make it really safe. Every time I listen to “Until We Meet Again,” I find myself saying the names of my people in that spot you left open. That is so nice to have, because we all have people that we miss connection to. It's a great way to honor them. It's the healing part people are trying to get to after loss.
I'm so thankful for that. I wanted that. That was a big part of the story. It wasn't an afterthought, because like I keep saying, “Until We Meet Again” is a whole song that Zo! and I did. Verses and choruses and outro, everything. Like it's like a three-part movement kind of song. And way early on in the project, I was like, “Maybe we should chop up “Until We Meet Again’ and make it like interludes on the album.”
Kind of like the “I Dedicate” interludes on Brandy's debut?
Right! Kind of like that! But it only appeared this one time. What you hear on the album was one of the chops, right? And then at some point I was like, “I'm gonna take this part and honor my folks.” I really liked the way it came out, but Phonte said, as the EP, “I think the talking is kind of intrusive. I think that people will understand what this is meant to be without you telling them.” And I was like, “Yeah, I don't want people to have to guess what this is.”
And also, Mark, now this part is really personal. [pauses to gather herself] I don't have kids. My legacy is my voice. That’s all I have. So, if anything ever happens to me—and it will at some point—the only evidence that I was here are my songs, are the things that I've recorded. So, if that part gets taken out of the song, nobody will ever know that I said it. And those names will never be uttered anywhere else. So they had to stay. They had to stay.
What brings out the fight in you when you're making art?
I think when the results of my intentions are threatened, that's what brings out the fight in me. Or when my purpose is threatened, I think that brings out the fight in me. Yeah.
Since you mentioned purpose, how would you define Until We Meet Again’s purpose?
The purpose is to let people know that it's okay to look back on things fondly. Even if things are hurtful or painful. Sometimes, even looking back on painful memories, it's like, “Wow, yeah, I remember that.” That was a wild and crazy time. That was kind of hurtful, but I'm glad I went through it.
Someone said the only difference between tragedy and comedy is time.
Exactly. It's okay to have survived and lived through something even your friends or some of your folks didn't make it through and be okay with yourself for making it through. And it's okay to make space for your grief. A lot of times we say, “Oh, it's a celebration of life” when somebody passes away. But then we say, “Okay, close the book on that. That's over. Get over it,” you know? And it's like, “No, it's not over.” Emotions don't work like that. It's okay to keep saying somebody's name out loud. Yeah.
Because you're the caliber of artist you are, I so wanted to talk to you about this project, so thank you for granting me the interview.
Oh, it's all good. This has been so enjoyable, Mark.
But before I go, one final question: what are your five favorite albums?
Okay, I'm going to just name the five that come to me. De La Soul’s 3 Feet High and Rising. Michael Jackson’s Off the Wall. A Tribe Called Quest’s The Low End Theory. The first Portishead album Dummy.
You were the first person that got me to listen to “Sour Times” when you worked it into your cover of Aaliyah’s “If Your Girl Only Knew.”
Really?
Yeah, I refused to listen to the song because I only heard like the snippet of it on MTV saying, “Nobody loves meeeee!” I thought singing along with that part was gonna make my self-esteem terrible—until I finally heard the “not like you do” part. Oh, I'm so simple. I'm sorry. [both laugh]
And Minnie Riperton’s Adventures in Paradise.
Yeah. Why Adventures in Paradise and not Perfect Angel or Minnie or Come to My Garden or Love Lives Forever? Just, why that one specifically?
I know! I like how sexy it is. I like how free she sounds. And I love the cover. You know?
I love the cover too. It kinda reminds me of your Until We Meet Again cover. All you needed was your poodle Djinji next to you to be the lion.
[Laughs]
Editor’s Note: This interview has been edited from the original transcript for length and clarity.
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